Your welcome and thanks for the comment. Glad you got something out of the post. Yes, the world is a mess, but all is operating according to His plan. Grace and peace to you.
Why prevent comments on your latest post about grace? I would like to add my own experience of God's grace for which I am humbled to have His mercy over many years and might aid others seeking salvation.
I was pleased to read your article Scott. I understand from it you are a mature and objective spiritualist. One point I would like to add is when evil has served its purpose, it retreats but does not go away forever. It WILL re-appear whenever nescience again disturbs the balance of peace in the world. You can find more in depth information about this in ancient Vedic texts such as Srimad Bhagavatam and other Puranas.
You need to be careful in making such a statement as you have done, that "we can prove that God created evil for a purpose and plans everything in His universe".
This can be easily misunderstood by someone who is unfamiliar with Scripture. God is not the author of evil. God created Lucifer, and the other angels who fell, and just as He did with man, He gave them free will. Moral evil is a choice. Fallen man in his state of total depravity, is incapable of choosing to do good. Even the good that fallen man does, will not earn salvation. Bad things do happen, people get ill, they die - this is all the result of sin, which came about through disobedience to God. The book of Jude tells us that " the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.” These angels made a decision of their own free will to abandon their proper dwelling i.e dwelling with God.
The evil referred to in Isaiah 45:7 instead refers to harmful natural events, calamity, misfortune, adversity, affliction, or disaster. It is in this second sense that Isaiah speaks, and his meaning is reflected in most modern Bible translations of Isaiah 45:7 : “I make success and create disaster”.
God is sovereign in all things, and has foreordained all that comes to pass - including natural disasters, various other "evil" events, or by using unregenerate men to fulfill His purposes - eg Nebuchadnezzar, Pontius Pilate.
David, thanks for the comment. I am very confused about what you said. You say that 'God is sovereign in all things, and has foreordained all that comes to pass.' This is true and scriptural. Yet, you also say that man, angles, Satan all have 'free wills.' This is completely unscriptural and in direct opposition to God's sovereignty. How can God be sovereign in anything if every creature is free to operate independently of God by this 'free will?' There is no doubt and I certainly agree that we all make choices, but these choices are planned by God so that they are not free. If you review Romans, chapter 9, this is satisfied decisively. Remember that 'free' means independent of all influence, including God's. This is not possible becasue in God we live, move, and exist (Acts 17:28). He gives to all life breath and all (Acts 17: 25-26).
Translations are an issue in scripture. As I mentioned before in Isaiah 45:7, the word for evil is 'ra' and this does not mean disaster. Everlasting should be translated as 'agelong' because the word 'aionios' is used in Greek. Lucifer is also a mistranslation as this word in the Hebrew mean 'howl.' Either way, I believe you are right in saying that the adversary and the fallen angels chose to disobey God, however, this is not something that surprised God which would have to happen if it came from a 'free will' choice. But instead, God planned this to happen as He plans all things. The foreknowledge of God makes 'free will' impossible. If God knows what is going to happen, then how would a person or an angel be free to do anything else?
You also said that God uses unregenerate men to fulfill His purposes. So true. God hardened pharoah's heart, God used Pontius Pilate to bring Jesus to the cross. Let me ask you this: God designated beforehand that Pilate would send Jesus to the cross (Acts 4: 27-28), then how was Pilate free to not send Jesus to the cross if God determined beforehand this would happen?
Can you give me one verse that uses the term 'free will' with regard to a person or an angel's choice? I can give you hundreds that prove God determines the choices we make. Let me know if you want me to send them to you. Grace and peace.
Maybe a poor choice of words. My apologies. We need to define what we each mean by "free will", and "freedom of choice". I agree - whatever God wills will come to pass. We are the clay, He is the potter.
"Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did He in heaven and on earth" - Psalm 135:6.
The point I was trying to get across, and maybe could have done better, was that God is not the author of sin (or evil). The question really is "does God commit sin?" This relates to God's holiness - so it should be a given that God does not commit sin. The death of Christ, and His resurrection was ordained as a means of effecting the atonement for sin, but it was Judas who betrayed Christ, not God. The secondary causes (in this case, Judas's betrayal) is not eliminated by divine causality, but in fact, are made certain. Judas had a choice, but the outcome had been foreordained, as was his choice.
God cannot sin. He can however, cause a person to sin, as there is no law superior to God, which forbids Him to decree sinful acts. This does not make God responsible for sin (even though He decrees it.) Man is responsible because God will call him to account. Man has no free will - salvation is all of grace.
The relation of one man to another as regards the law of God is completely different than the relation of God to the law (i.e the moral law, the ten commandments). God has absolute rights over all created things. Thus, the law that defines sin is for the human condition, and has no relevance to a sovereign God.
Whatever your views are of "natural disasters", I think we can agree that God has foreordained those also, and that they are the result of a fallen creation. It was not just man that fell - the whole of creation fell also, as is evident from Romans 8.
"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
Thanks, David. I certainly agree with most of this comment as God certainly does not and cannot sin, even when He causes human beings to sin. The only thing you stated that I disagree with is 'Man is responsible because God will call him to account.' Every man will give an account of what he has done to God. No doubt. However, I believe accountability is something very different than responsibility. I agree with you that Judas betrayed Christ, not God. But, this does not mean that God is not responsible. How is God not responsible if He foreordained the choice of Judas to the point that Judas could not do anything else? Again, Judas will be held accountable for this but God determined this and so, in my view, is responsible. The reason God did not betray Christ was because the ultimate good that would result was Jesus being the Firstborn of a new creation and His name above every other name, etc. Basically all the glory that it would bring Him. For Judas, he will be held accountable and judged (corrected). Maybe we are splitting hairs here...I don't know. Either way, thanks for the respectful conversation.
Thank you. I needed this today… have been feeling despair when I contemplate the world lately.
Your welcome and thanks for the comment. Glad you got something out of the post. Yes, the world is a mess, but all is operating according to His plan. Grace and peace to you.
Why prevent comments on your latest post about grace? I would like to add my own experience of God's grace for which I am humbled to have His mercy over many years and might aid others seeking salvation.
I didn't prevent comments intentionally. I'm not sure what happened, I'll try to change it.
Thanks, Scott - grateful
I was pleased to read your article Scott. I understand from it you are a mature and objective spiritualist. One point I would like to add is when evil has served its purpose, it retreats but does not go away forever. It WILL re-appear whenever nescience again disturbs the balance of peace in the world. You can find more in depth information about this in ancient Vedic texts such as Srimad Bhagavatam and other Puranas.
You need to be careful in making such a statement as you have done, that "we can prove that God created evil for a purpose and plans everything in His universe".
This can be easily misunderstood by someone who is unfamiliar with Scripture. God is not the author of evil. God created Lucifer, and the other angels who fell, and just as He did with man, He gave them free will. Moral evil is a choice. Fallen man in his state of total depravity, is incapable of choosing to do good. Even the good that fallen man does, will not earn salvation. Bad things do happen, people get ill, they die - this is all the result of sin, which came about through disobedience to God. The book of Jude tells us that " the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.” These angels made a decision of their own free will to abandon their proper dwelling i.e dwelling with God.
The evil referred to in Isaiah 45:7 instead refers to harmful natural events, calamity, misfortune, adversity, affliction, or disaster. It is in this second sense that Isaiah speaks, and his meaning is reflected in most modern Bible translations of Isaiah 45:7 : “I make success and create disaster”.
God is sovereign in all things, and has foreordained all that comes to pass - including natural disasters, various other "evil" events, or by using unregenerate men to fulfill His purposes - eg Nebuchadnezzar, Pontius Pilate.
David, thanks for the comment. I am very confused about what you said. You say that 'God is sovereign in all things, and has foreordained all that comes to pass.' This is true and scriptural. Yet, you also say that man, angles, Satan all have 'free wills.' This is completely unscriptural and in direct opposition to God's sovereignty. How can God be sovereign in anything if every creature is free to operate independently of God by this 'free will?' There is no doubt and I certainly agree that we all make choices, but these choices are planned by God so that they are not free. If you review Romans, chapter 9, this is satisfied decisively. Remember that 'free' means independent of all influence, including God's. This is not possible becasue in God we live, move, and exist (Acts 17:28). He gives to all life breath and all (Acts 17: 25-26).
Translations are an issue in scripture. As I mentioned before in Isaiah 45:7, the word for evil is 'ra' and this does not mean disaster. Everlasting should be translated as 'agelong' because the word 'aionios' is used in Greek. Lucifer is also a mistranslation as this word in the Hebrew mean 'howl.' Either way, I believe you are right in saying that the adversary and the fallen angels chose to disobey God, however, this is not something that surprised God which would have to happen if it came from a 'free will' choice. But instead, God planned this to happen as He plans all things. The foreknowledge of God makes 'free will' impossible. If God knows what is going to happen, then how would a person or an angel be free to do anything else?
You also said that God uses unregenerate men to fulfill His purposes. So true. God hardened pharoah's heart, God used Pontius Pilate to bring Jesus to the cross. Let me ask you this: God designated beforehand that Pilate would send Jesus to the cross (Acts 4: 27-28), then how was Pilate free to not send Jesus to the cross if God determined beforehand this would happen?
Can you give me one verse that uses the term 'free will' with regard to a person or an angel's choice? I can give you hundreds that prove God determines the choices we make. Let me know if you want me to send them to you. Grace and peace.
Maybe a poor choice of words. My apologies. We need to define what we each mean by "free will", and "freedom of choice". I agree - whatever God wills will come to pass. We are the clay, He is the potter.
"Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did He in heaven and on earth" - Psalm 135:6.
The point I was trying to get across, and maybe could have done better, was that God is not the author of sin (or evil). The question really is "does God commit sin?" This relates to God's holiness - so it should be a given that God does not commit sin. The death of Christ, and His resurrection was ordained as a means of effecting the atonement for sin, but it was Judas who betrayed Christ, not God. The secondary causes (in this case, Judas's betrayal) is not eliminated by divine causality, but in fact, are made certain. Judas had a choice, but the outcome had been foreordained, as was his choice.
God cannot sin. He can however, cause a person to sin, as there is no law superior to God, which forbids Him to decree sinful acts. This does not make God responsible for sin (even though He decrees it.) Man is responsible because God will call him to account. Man has no free will - salvation is all of grace.
The relation of one man to another as regards the law of God is completely different than the relation of God to the law (i.e the moral law, the ten commandments). God has absolute rights over all created things. Thus, the law that defines sin is for the human condition, and has no relevance to a sovereign God.
Whatever your views are of "natural disasters", I think we can agree that God has foreordained those also, and that they are the result of a fallen creation. It was not just man that fell - the whole of creation fell also, as is evident from Romans 8.
"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
Thanks, David. I certainly agree with most of this comment as God certainly does not and cannot sin, even when He causes human beings to sin. The only thing you stated that I disagree with is 'Man is responsible because God will call him to account.' Every man will give an account of what he has done to God. No doubt. However, I believe accountability is something very different than responsibility. I agree with you that Judas betrayed Christ, not God. But, this does not mean that God is not responsible. How is God not responsible if He foreordained the choice of Judas to the point that Judas could not do anything else? Again, Judas will be held accountable for this but God determined this and so, in my view, is responsible. The reason God did not betray Christ was because the ultimate good that would result was Jesus being the Firstborn of a new creation and His name above every other name, etc. Basically all the glory that it would bring Him. For Judas, he will be held accountable and judged (corrected). Maybe we are splitting hairs here...I don't know. Either way, thanks for the respectful conversation.